[蝶龍] Darren Aronofsky The Wrestler – USA, 105'：比較老的摔角選手

瑪莉莎托梅

Interview: Darren Aronofsky - Part 4









Peter Sciretta: I hope this is not a stupid question. Imagine you’re a film critic and you’ve seen Darren Aronofsky’s new film, The Wrestler. It’s great but you’re not quite sure how it’s fitting in in the grand scheme of the Darren Aronofsy touch. How would you fit that in if you were in a film critic position?



希望這個問題不會太蠢。想像你是影評，看了蝶龍最新力作，摔角選手。很棒，但你不太確定這電影是否能放在蝶龍偉大電影框架裡。如果你是影評，你會做何解釋呢？





Darren Aronofsky: For me, I talked to Peter a little bit about this. The first three films were definitely a chapter for me. I don’t know, maybe it’s a new beginning. Some people have sort of talked about thematic connections between them. I think they’re there, not that I was that conscious of them, but some people bring them up and I’m like hmmm… that’s pretty interesting.



我跟彼得稍微討過。前三部電影絕對是我的心身靈三部曲。我不知道，也許這是個新的開始。有人已經開始討論電影間主題的關聯。我覺得他們，也不是說我多在意，但有些人帶起這個討論串，實在很……有趣。





I think there’s a couple of shots I–



我認為有幾個鏡頭……





Not even shots, but like even themes about the characters seem to connect to people. I got a lot of characters falling at the end or something like that. I don’t know. I just want to keep challenging myself. I think that this was definitely a real big risk for me in a lot of ways. In some ways it wasn’t. It was such a small film. But in other ways I was just trying to do something completely different and working with a completely different team of filmmakers and working in a completely different way of approaching filmmaking. It just kept it interesting for me. Now I’m kind of excited to keep challenging myself in new ways and seeing what happens. I think it’s important. You’ve got to keep it interesting somehow. Otherwise, I’m going to end up just hanging out or fishing or something.



不只是鏡頭，甚至是關於角色的主題也被拿來討論。我有許多角色皆以失敗收場之類的。我不知道。我只是想不斷討戰自己。在許多方面絕對是個大冒險。在某些方面又不是。那真是個小成本電影。但另一方面我只是嘗試截然不同的事物，和截然不同的團隊工作，用截然不同的方法拍電影。總是很有趣。我現在有點興奮，以新方向挑戰自我，看看會發生什麼事。我認為這很重要。你必須讓事情保持有趣。否則，蝶籠將終日閒晃，或釣魚之類的。





Your first two films are very stylistic. Not to say that The Fountain wasn’t. But it seems like in the last two you’ve become more minimalist or possibly more traditional in your style. Was that a specific choice on your part?



你的前兩部電影相當風格化。真愛泉源更不消說。但最近兩部電影你似乎越來越走向極簡主義，或者可能以你的風格更為傳統。那是刻意的選擇嗎？





I think the first two films were exercises in subjective filmmaking and pushing that to the extreme, trying to figure out every possible technique to put an audience member into the characters’ heads. Pi was constructed that way because I had a limited budget and that became kind of the strategy of how to turn that limited budget into a strength. It was to really cut back on cutting away to the bad guys and really making a whole visual language that was all about pushing the audience into Max Cohen’s head. Requiem, a big reason that I was attracted to it is when I read the novel, I realized that Selby’s a very subjective writer and constantly going into fantasy and to dream. It would allow me to kind of expand on the thing I was doing in Pi, but with a bigger budget and color and with more time and with four characters. So when I read that opening scene of the novel and I saw the mom locked in the closet and the kid stealing the TV, I instantly had this idea of a split screen sort of showing the audience, “Oh, we’re going to see two very personal stories here from two different perspectives.” Then eventually it opened up into four perspectives. They were really exercises and really pushing subjective filmmaking. When I got to The Fountain, it was kind of a transition. I was definitely done with that as an exploration and also the subject matter of The Fountain was much more– It was a romance and it allowed me to move more towards the objective, although I still kind of played a little bit with getting into Tommy’s head and into his reality. It was kind of a transition and kind of expanding my style, I guess. I think getting to The Wrestler was really just going in the completely opposite direction. Basically, the film is 98 percent objective. It’s like a documentary. I call it proactive documentary, because I think in a real documentary everything is reactive. If you’re watching Cops and a guy runs away and then a second later the camera chases after the guy and goes after him, we didn’t have that second delay. We kind of knew what the scene was about and we knew where Mickey or Marisa was going to go. So we were able to choreograph that. We kind of had this proactive style where we were working with the actor to give a documentary feeling, allow realism to happen, but we were ready for it. There’s no really internal sound stuff, except for maybe two or three times I used it, which was like during the heart attacks and when he’s walking to the deli counter and the crowd comes up. Otherwise, besides that, there’s never a personal sound beat. I kind of really didn’t want to do that, but I couldn’t resist. It’s actually a little weak. People responded to those moments, I think.



　前兩部電影在一個主觀的環境下執行，並推到極限，試著找出所有能將觀眾變腦角色的可能技術。拍得那樣拍因為預算有限，也成了化限制為力量的對策。縮減壞人鏡頭，以強烈視覺語言將觀眾變腦麥克斯柯恩。噩夢輓歌，我被吸引的很大原因就是第一次閱讀小說時，我理解到瑟比是個非常主觀的作家，且經常神遊物外。這允許我放大我在拍做的事，但預算和顏色更充裕，時間更多，四人行。所以當我閱讀小說開場白，我看到媽媽鎖在衣櫃，小孩正在偷電視機，馬上有分割畫面主意告訴觀眾：「喔！我們即將從兩個截然不同的觀點看兩個私人故事。」結果有四個觀點。他們被執行得很好，而且逼出主觀拍攝。拍真愛泉源時，有點像是過渡。我視其為一種探索，真愛泉源的主旨更為—那是個愛情故事，讓我更朝向客觀，即使我還是有點想將觀眾變腦湯米。那是一種過渡，拓展個人風格，我猜。我認為摔角選手是朝著完全相反的方向走。基本上，這電影客觀程度是百分之九十八。就像部紀錄片。我稱之為前反應記錄片，因為真正的紀錄片裡所有事物都是可以即時反應的。如果你正在看烏龍派出所，男子逃逸，下一秒攝影機就追著他跑，我們零延遲。我們大概知道這場景是關於什麼，我們也知道米基或瑪莉莎下一步。所以我們可以先演練一下。和演員合作的記錄片感營造前反應風格，呈現寫實主義，但我們已經準備好。沒有內部聲效，除了兩三次，為了心臟病爆發和自助餐廳蜂湧。除此之外，沒有個人聲響。我不太想弄那個，不過情不自禁。其實有點弱。人們有所反應，我猜。

















Maybe it works that there’s only two of them.



也許觀眾有所反應是因為只有兩三次。





Yes, but I’m a very orthodox filmmaker in the sense that I try to be very strict with my rules, because I think it adds to the language. I think sometimes it’s okay to bend the rules for a good moment. It’s just a growth. I don’t know how it answers your question, but [my] style is changing.



是的，不過我是個非常正統的導演，試圖格守我的規則，因為那是語言的塑成之一。有時候為了好時光不遵守規則沒關係。那是一種增長。我不知道有沒有回答到你的問題，但 (我的) 風格正改變中。





I thought you were going to say that Mickey Rourke wouldn’t let you strap a camera to him. (joking)



我原本猜你要說米基洛克不讓你把攝影機綁在他身上。(玩笑)





He probably would have. I didn’t do that in The Fountain, because I was just kind of done with that. Every music video and commercial ended up doing it after us, so it was like enough.



他可能會。我在真愛泉源沒那樣做，因為我膩了。每支音樂錄影帶和廣告都會那樣拍，所以有點氾濫。





I’m curious where this script came from. You’re not credited on that one, as far as I can tell. Did you work on it or did it arrive at your door?



我很好奇劇本打哪來。你沒掛名，就我所知。你有參與其中，還是送上門來？





No, no. It was an original idea that I had. It started off just called The Wrestler when I graduated from film school in the early 1990s. Then about 2002, when The Fountain fell apart the first time, I got together with this producer, Scott Franklin, and we started to come together with ideas about what it would be like. Then a couple years later we hired Rob Segal. At that point we had some ideas about the kind of world we wanted and the realism. We had the idea of an older wrestler. Originally, we didn’t have the older wrestler idea, but it became pretty clear that if we had a younger wrestler doing something with the WWE, probably I wouldn’t get the creative freedom I needed. So then we thought about making a period piece before Vince McMahon had organized all the territories. Then we realized we were probably looking at a low budget film here, so we can’t do a period film. Then I started going to the independent shows and we saw a lot of these legends kind of working for $200-$300 a night–Jimmy Superflex Snuka, Rocky Johnson, Captain Lou, Iron Sheik, Nikolai Volkoff. We saw all these legends. Even though I wasn’t a huge fan, I knew all these names. They were kind of these big stars from childhood that I was embarrassed to meet. They were there signing autographs for $8. That’s when the idea of like there’s a story here. Then it made it even more independent, because we were dealing with an actor past their prime, or what Hollywood considers its prime. That’s how it slowly evolved. Then Rob came on and that was about the same time Mickey Rourke as an idea came on. Then 25-35 drafts later, we got there. I definitely put him through. He definitely worked for it. That’s why I gave him, even though we developed it a lot with him, the reason he deserved all the credit is because he did all the hard labor. We sat there and we would rip it apart, like any good development should happen. Then he’d go and he’d write it and we’d say, “Oh, this is better, but it still sucks,” and just kept going. Then Mickey came on and Mickey had a lot of ideas. So it was a long road.



不，沒有。那是我的原創點子。一開始就只有摔角選手這個片名，自我九零年代前期畢業電影學校後。後來約莫二零零二，真愛泉源第一次分崩離析，我和製片史考特法蘭克林碰面，然後開始想電影要怎樣拍。幾年後我們雇用羅伯席格。那時我們有些點子關於我們想要怎樣的世界和寫實主義。比較老的摔角選手點子產生。起初，我們沒有比較老的摔角選手點子，直到如果我們有比較年輕的摔角選手從事世界摔角娛樂，可能無法取得我需要的自由。所以我們構思一個文森馬克洪組織版圖前的時代劇。後來我們了解到我們要拍的是低成本電影，所以不能拍時代劇。接著我開始看獨立表演秀，我們看到許多傳奇人物每晚兩百到三百美金地工作—吉米超級收縮史奴卡，巨石強森，路易隊長，鐵男榭克，尼可拉沃可夫。我們看遍傳奇人物。即使我不是瘋狂粉絲，也耳熟能詳。他們大概是讓我小時候尷尬的大明星。他們叫賣著一張八塊美金簽名照。故事有個頭。越來越獨立製片，因為我們和一個過巔峰的演員合作，或者是好萊塢認為的巔峰。故事就這樣慢慢展開。羅伯加入同時，米基洛克也有點子。二十五到三十五次擬稿後，搞定。我絕對信任他。他絕對使命必達。這就是我給他，即使我們發展許多主意，他值得所有功勞的原因，是因為他完成所有苦差事。我們坐在那，支解，就像任何好發展該做的。然後他會重寫，我們會說：「喔！這樣好多了，但還是很遜。」週而復始。接著米基現身，文思泉湧。漫漫長路。



  Vince McMahon 1945~





I know you’ve told that story a million times, but I just genuinely wanted to know.



我知道你已經講過一千萬遍，但我還是不厭倦。





No, no. It’s kind of like jazz, this whole press tour — like how to tell the stories, improvise in a way. They change up every time. I’m sure if you compared with our interview was probably one of the first interviews I did or at least one of the early in-depth interviews. I’d be curious to match them up.



不，不。那有點像爵士，整個過程—像我們如何說這個故事，即興發揮。每次都不一樣。我保證你如果和其他採訪比較，絕對是首次訪談，或者最早的深度訪談之一。我很想把他們拼湊起來。





The authenticity of the film, from the wrestlers wearing fanny packs to the NES game. There’s just so many things that ring so very authentic that a Hollywood film would have totally missed.



這電影的真實性，從摔角選手戴霹靂腰包到任天堂遊戲。有太多真實性是好萊塢電影會遺漏的。





Getting Mickey Rourke to wear the fucking fanny pack was a bitch. “Mickey, you’ve got to wear the fanny pack. They all wear fanny packs. You’ve got to wear the fanny pack.” Can you picture Mickey Rourke, who is Mr. Cool and Mr. Macho putting on a fanny pack? It’s like, “Mickey, every wrestler we’ve met has a fanny pack. You’ve got to wear the fanny pack.” I got him for one shot to do it. That’s a shot that’s in the movie. A lot of those details just came from a lot of research and just traveling around. A lot of it came from Rob, the writer. What was the other one you pointed out?



較米基洛克戴他奶奶的霹靂腰包真是個熊。「米基，你得戴上這霹靂腰包。他們都有戴。你得戴上這霹靂腰包。」你能想像米基洛克，酷哥和真男人戴霹靂腰包嗎？就像「米基，每位我們見過的摔角選手都帶霹靂腰包。你得戴上這霹靂腰包。」有一場戲他得戴上霹靂腰包。電影裡有。許多細節皆來自深度考據和旅行。許多都是編劇羅伯點子。你還提到什麼？



  fanny pack (puppy style)





The Nintendo game.



任天堂遊戲。





The Nintendo game Rob wrote. We had the idea because that’s definitely a part of these legends’ lives.



羅伯寫的任天堂遊戲。有這樣構想因為那是部份傳奇人物的生活。





That’s a big part of it. That’s the first time you realize exactly how big he was.



那是很大的部份。那是你首次了解到有多大。





But that was a great scene. That scene was interesting. Mickey hates child stars, child actors I should say. He just hates child actors. He didn’t want to have to deal with the child actor. He just hates them. So I got them shooting. The kid was a good actor, but he was a little over-rehearsed, which a lot of these kid actors they come in there a bit over-rehearsed. The dialogue was very funny that Rob had written. It had to do with how old the game was and very much sort of what the scene is about. But then finally, after just maybe 10 or 20 minutes of shooting, I was like, “You know what? What’s your favorite game, John?” John was like, “Call of Duty.” I was like, “Tell Mickey about it.” It just came out like that. So that was the whole thing. The whole nature of the film was so much improvisation like that. It was great to watch.



但那是個偉大的場景。有趣的場景。米基討厭童星，我該說兒童演員。他就是討厭兒童演員。他不想和兒童演員打交道。他就是討厭他們。所以我找他們來拍電影。這小子是個好演員，不過有點過度排演，很多小子都那樣。羅伯寫的對話很好笑。我必須處理遊戲年齡和場景關於什麼。最後，拍沒十幾二十分鐘，我說「你猜怎麼著？最喜歡的遊戲？約翰？」約翰回：「決勝時刻」「去跟米基叔叔說。」這就是事情的始末。來龍去脈。這電影的本質相當即興發揮。棒極了。





The potato salad lady at the counter is another one that just feels so–



自助餐的馬鈴薯娘子又是個……





She was a real lady. I don’t know if I told you this story, but half those people were real people. We didn’t have the money to close the deli counter or the supermarket. So people were coming over. All the other people behind the counter and Mickey with the real women, they were all women that worked there. People were coming over and I was like, “You know what, Mickey? You should just start serving these people.” He started serving them. Then the manager came over at some point and asked me if Mickey could improve his handwriting. I asked why and it turned out people were buying the meat that he was serving them. In between takes Mickey was like, you know, wiping his nose and his hands are all over. I’m like, “Oh, god. These people are, you know.” I don’t know if they realized there was a movie going on and what it was. We were very, very kind of stealth. We weren’t a huge crew. There was no video playback. Most films have that. They have those monitors that everyone sits around and the director sits around. We didn’t have that. There was no like director chair or actors chairs or any of that. There was nowhere to sit.



他真的是個馬鈴薯娘子。我不知道我講過這故事沒，電影裡一半的人物都是真的。我們沒錢關閉自助餐廳或超級市場。所以人群來往。自助餐窗口後的人們和米基合作的女人，他們都是正港員工。人群往來，我說：「米基，你應該幫這些人服務。」他開始服務。接著經理過來，問我可不可以叫米基字寫端正點。詢問之下因為有人買了米基的肉。拍攝期間米基，你知道的，擰鼻子，手到處亂摸。「天啊！這些人，你知道的。」我不知道那些人知不知道電影在拍攝。監視器，每個人隨意坐，導演隨意坐。我們沒有。沒有導演椅或演員椅之類的。無處可坐。





Was it like filming Pi or?



跟拍一樣還是？





Well, Pi was $20,000. This was $6 million. So we had shots and everything. But it was the same attitude. It was very similar when we were actually in locations. We had the same type of control of the situations as what we had when we shot Pi, which was minimal. Every day a new location. We were just in and out of places. Luckily, we had a DP that most times you go into a location and you spend half a day lighting it. But this, we were up and ready to go, which was great.



拍預算是二十千美金。摔角選手六百萬美金。所以我們有鏡頭，萬事皆備。但態度相同。我們在現場是沒什麼差別的。我們以相同方式掌控形勢，和拍一樣極簡。每天到不同場地拍攝。我們進進出出。很幸運地，我們有滴匹，不然大部份時間每到一個場地就得花半天打光。但這次我們準備好了，棒極了。

















要不是 浮華世界 蝶龍米基帥，實在不想翻蝶龍抽出午餐時間二十分鐘的第四篇，內容根本重複下面露餡。第五篇 不翻了！紐約影展 記者會。最後附上曼森女郎小瑞秋照片五張。