[蝶龍] Darren Aronofsky The Wrestler – USA, 105'：心身靈三部曲

真愛泉源一點零

Interview: Darren Aronofksy - Part 2









Peter Sciretta: How was your experience with the wrestling fans? I can imagine…



跟摔角迷相處融洽否？我可以想像……





Darren Aronofsky: They were fantastic. They were hilarious. Look, I'll tell you a funny story. We went out to shoot that final Ayatollah match. And this was set after Mickey sliced his thumb [in the story timeline]. One time we forgot to put the tape on and someone from the audience screamed that he forgot the tape on his thumb. "You forgot the tape!" And I heard it. And I was like, "Oh shit, we've got to tape him". So the whole audience started screaming, "You fucked up!" Then Mickey came out and did that big heart-felt speech. I didn't tell the audience it was going to happen. I just sent Mickey out there, because I just wanted to see what would happen with the audience. I was into this "live thing". But the audience was shouting responses and they were stepping all over his lines. They didn't show any respect to it. So I went out there and I was like "You guys, this is a heart felt moment. This is a man at the end of his career who you love and you respect…" And then they all started screaming. "We fucked up. We fucked up." So they were great! The Ring of Honor audience was great. The CZW audience were obviously very rowdy and cursing us out. There’s that YouTube video where they attack us. But they loved it. They couldn't help themselves but to be rude. And then the first match, that first match for Afa's promotion, WXW was much more controllable.



他們棒極了。他們熱情如火。老兄，我跟你說個有趣的故事。(電影劇情裡) 米基劃破拇指後，我們到外面拍攝那場什葉派生死鬥。有一次我們忘記貼膠帶，觀眾有人大喊米基忘記在拇指上貼膠帶。「你忘記貼膠帶了！」而我聽到了，心想：「雪特，我們必須幫他貼上膠帶。」所以觀眾開始叫囂，「蝶龍你搞砸了！」接著米基出面，開始那場觸人心弦演說。我當時沒打算告知觀眾會發生什麼事。我只是叫米基登場，因為我只想看觀眾如何反應。我很投入這種「臨場感」。不過觀眾叫囂著，跨越警戒線。他們不懂得尊重。所以換我出面，呼籲：「鄉親，你們正見證觸人心弦時刻。你們所愛所尊敬的這男人處於生涯末期……」他們全體開始叫囂：「我們搞砸了。我們搞砸了。」他們棒極了！榮耀競技場的觀眾棒極了。星際達博優的觀眾明顯粗鄙，還會幹我們老師。上你管點閱我們被攻擊的畫面。但他們喜歡那樣。他們就是天生粗鄙 。接著是第一場生死豆，宣傳阿法的第一場生死鬥，達博優二次方的觀眾就比較文雅。





This is the first film you didn't write? Were you involved part of the writing process?



這是第一部非你編劇的電影？寫作過程有參與其中嗎？





me and my team at Protozoa did a lot of development, and really worked with Rob a lot. And that’s why I took a producing credit, which I've never done before. The structure and the bones of it was a collaboration between us and Rob. But Rob also added the humor. He wrote the Passion of the Christ line and he wrote the great Kurt Cobain line. He brought details that were just fantastic in the project.



我和我的原生動物團隊做了許多構想，並且和勞勃合作無間。這就是我擔任製片原因，這是我之前從未做過的。骨架是我們和勞勃合作成果。但是勞勃添增幽默感。他寫出耶穌受難記台詞和寇特柯本台詞。他帶來棒極的細節。





Did the budget dictate the style or was that a choice you specifically made?



預算決定風格，亦或蝶龍決定風格？





I kind of wanted to do the project, wanting to free myself from the technical work I had been doing in The Fountain. And actually I should say, for me, Pi, Requiem and The Fountain were really a trilogy. I kind of call it like my mind, body, spirit trilogy. Pi - being mind, Requiem - being body and The Fountain - being spirit.



我有點想做這計劃，從真愛泉源的技術工作釋放自我。而且我應該說，對我來說，拍，噩夢輓歌和真愛泉源是個三部曲。我稱之為我的心、身、靈三部曲。拍，我的心智；噩夢輓歌，我的身體；真愛泉源，我的靈魂。





That's awesome…



蝶龍萬歲……





And as far as a progression of style. Even though I hope they are unique of each other, there's definitely connections between them. That was for me as a filmmaker, I was growing and developing a language. But if Madonna taught us anything, it’s that you've got to reinvent yourself. And I really believe that and so I kind of felt like The Fountain was everything I wanted to do, in the sense that everything in it, every frame, every sound effect on the speakers was thought about, and controlled and tweaked to what we wanted. And I just wanted to throw that out the window. That was a big part when I cast Mickey. I realized what type of actor he was. I wanted him to create an environment where he could completely roam free. So I hired Maryse Alberti to be the cinematographer. Maryse has done a lot of fiction work, but has also done a lot of documentary. So we just sort of lit up the spaces so that we could just basically let Mickey roam. We did crazy things like at that big wrestling match when I told Mickey to just "Go back stage" after their match ends. And that was not scripted. Those guys didn't know we were coming. That was the first take and the only take, and we just put the camera on our shoulder and we followed Mickey through the crowd. And they just reacted. The wrestlers were great because they are entertainers and they're used to cameras so they were just totally natural in front of the camera, and they just went for it. So we could do things like that.



也是風格的演化。即使我希望他們都是獨一無二的，這當中絕對有其關連。身為導演，我正發展一種語言。但如果瑪丹娜教了我們什麼，那就是你得獨樹一格。而我真的奉為圭臬，真愛泉源就是我希冀許久想做的，每件事，每個畫面，每個揚聲器聲效都是我所想，所控制，所曲折至我想要。而我想把那一切拋諸窗外。米基是關鍵。我了解到米基是個怎樣的演員。我要他營造一個他可以如魚得水的環境。所以我找瑪莉希艾柏蒂當攝影師。瑪莉希拍過許多電影，但也拍過許多記錄片。所以我們基本上就是打好光，讓米基好好如魚得水。我們做了許多瘋狂事，我叫米基在那場生死鬥後「回到競技場上」劇本裡沒有的，那些人不知道我們會來。那是第一個也是唯一的鏡頭，我們把攝影機扛在肩上，跟著米基穿梭人群。他們給我們回應。摔角選手偉大之處在於，他們是娛樂家，習慣攝影機，所以在鏡頭前泰然自若，全力以赴。所以我們也可以全力以赴。



按：瑪莉希艾柏蒂 (Maryse Alberti) 優秀作品如【毒藥】【愛我就讓我快樂】【絲絨金礦】榮獲獨立精神獎最佳攝影【甜蜜的強暴我】









　Maryse Alberti & Todd Haynes!!!

















That was one of my favorite shots of the film, that and the sequence where Mickey first goes to the deli and it's almost like him walking through the backstage area while getting ready to make his entrance to the ring.



那是我最喜歡的鏡頭之一。米基到餐廳的鏡頭，幾乎就像他走過後台，準備接受歡眾擊掌般。





He did not like that scene, just so you know. Because he just felt the shame of Randy the Ram. Most of it was improvised; in fact a lot of those customers were not actors, they were real customers and we just started filming. They knew the camera was there, and we were like, "Hey! Do you mind if we shoot this?" I don’t know if they knew Mickey Rourke but they were like, "OK. Fine." That woman ordering the chicken, that just happened. Really. All improvised. The supermarket was open and people were coming up to him. We didn't shut down. We didn't have the budget to shut the super market down. We were just behind the deli counter and people were shopping. We would kind of control them with PA’s. One of the managers came up and said "You know, the check out people can't read Mickey's handwriting." And I was like, "What are you talking about?" Apparently some people were trying to buy some of the things that Mickey was filling out. I mean Mickey's scribbling random numbers. He doesn't know what anything is. And customers actually went home with the food that Mickey put together.



他沒很愛場戲，你知道的。因為他感受到公羊藍迪的羞恥。那場戲大部分是即興演出；事實上很多用餐者都不是演員，他們都是真的消費者。他們知道攝影機擺在那，我們類似「嘿！你們介意我們在這裡拍電影嗎？」我不知道他們知不知道米基洛克是誰，不過他們都「好。隨便。」之類的。那女人點了雞肉，而事情就這樣發生了。真的。完全即興演出。超級市場開放，人們走向他們。我們沒有關起門來，我們沒有關閉超級市場的預算。我們就在餐廳後頭，人們購物。我們用皮耶來掌控他們。一位經理走來，說：「你知道，我們的人看不懂米基的字。」我就一副「義大利？」模樣。顯然有人想買米基塗鴉的東西。我是說米基只是在報明牌。他沒有丁點主意關於那明牌。而消費者也就把那些米基擺在一起的食物帶回家。





That is funny. That is really funny.



哈哈。真是有趣。





Yeah.



是的。





And I noticed that some of the people in the Deli sequence also had the last name of Aronofsky.



而且我注意到餐廳也有人姓阿諾夫斯基。





Yeah, my parents. Both of them have been in all the films, so it was great to bring them back in.



生我者父母。兩者幾乎參與所有蝶龍電影演出，有他們在實在太棒了。



按：Abraham Aronofsky & Charlotte Aronofsky





How did Mickey's training go? There's some sequences in there where he's fighting and it looks like a real wrestling match of an older wrestler.



米基怎樣訓練？有些鏡頭米基看起來就像個老職業摔角選手。





He did every single move in that film. He performed everything in that film. And he wanted to. We hired Afa. I don't know if you remember the Wild Samoans. Afa is a great wrestling teacher, now out in Allentown. He put together a team of guys who trained Mickey for three months to do it. As he got deeper and deeper into it, he wanted to do more and more and more challenging and more and more difficult things, which scared the shit out of me. As a director concerned for his safety, but as you know, he didn't want to look like a sap. One of his trainers, Tommy Rotten, came up to me last night and said, "he's better than 80 percent of the guys in the WWE right now. And there's not a wrestler in the world who will see this movie and not think Mickey is a wrestler." Yes, Mickey is athletic, we know he was a boxer. But boxing and wrestling are opposites in many ways, even though they both take place in the ring. Mickey explained to me, that in boxing you hide where you're going, you don't want people to see your moves. But wrestling is the exact opposite, you're showing them. It's complete broadness. Boxing is like a simple quick, can't see it, wrestling is all about being seen. So it actually hurt Mickey having been trained as a boxer. I had to constantly watch him and make sure he wasn't moving like a boxer in the ring because they move completely differently than wrestlers. But being a boxer and trying to play a wrestler was very difficult for that reason as well as the reason is that most boxers look down on wrestling. But I think as he met Afa and as he met all these old-timers, Greg The Hammer Valentine, that he saw that it was a real art and truly a real sport. I think he learned to really respect it and I think he's very proud.



每個鏡頭都是米基親自上陣。完全不用替身。米基想這樣做。我們找來阿法。不知道你還記不記得狂野賽門斯。阿法是個偉大的摔角教師。目前定居艾倫鎮。他組織團隊訓練米基三個月。隨著訓練加重，米基想嘗試更多挑戰，與挑戰更多更多困難，嚇死我。作為導演考量安全，但你知道，米基拒絕當個笨蛋。他的訓練員之一，湯米羅頓，昨晚跟我說：「他比時下百分之八十的職業聯盟選手都優秀。世界上沒有摔角選手看完摔角選手會認為米基不是摔角選手。」是的，米基是個運動員，我們知道他是個拳擊選手。但拳擊和摔角在許多面向都是相反的，即使他們都在擂台舉行。米基向我解釋，拳擊比賽中你必須隱藏行蹤，你不想讓對方知道你下一步怎麼走。但摔角正好完全相反，要來便來。無處可躲。拳擊講究靈巧，不能被看見，摔角就是要讓對方好看。所以米基曾接受拳擊訓練容易受傷。我必須時時刻刻看著他，確保他在場上舉止不像個拳擊選手，因為對方行動和拳擊選手完全相反。拳擊選手飾演摔角選手有其困難，除了前述原因，另個原因就是大部分拳擊選手鄙視摔角。但我相信當他認識阿法，以及那些老學校，重槌情人節葛瑞格後，米基認識到摔角是門藝術，更是個真正的運動。我相信他學會尊重摔角，並且引以為傲。





Did he even like the glass shot, and stuff like that?



那他喜歡玻璃鏡頭，以及相關事物嗎？





No, he didn't go through the glass, but he did get hit on the back with the bucket and so he did a lot of it. There were a few things he couldn't do, you know. He climbed to the top rope. You saw that shot where he jumps on the top rope and mounts the other guy and does the spin. So he did a lot of crazy stuff.



不，他不用穿越黑暗的玻璃，但他因為拍攝許多水桶鏡頭導致背傷。很少事情是米基做不到，你知道的。他攀爬頂繩。你看到那鏡頭他從頂繩泰山壓頂對手，再來個大車輪。米基做了許多瘋狂事。





Can you talk a little about the music of The Wrestler. You have Slash doing guitar riffs for Clint Mansell's score, and you have Bruce Springsteen… How did you pull that one off?



可以談談摔角選手的音樂嗎？你找來史勒許為克林克曼梭即興演奏，你還請到布魯斯史普林斯汀……好人緣如何培養？





Well, Bruce Springsteen did the film for one reason. And it had nothing do with me. In fact, to be honest, I met with Bruce, and he's heard of me, which is very flattering, but he had never seen any of my work. He did it for one reason and that was that he did it for Mickey. He's a friend of Mickey's. He's a tremendous fan of Mickey's and when he heard about this film, he felt that this was something that Mickey's been looking for for years. So he wanted to help, and that's the only reason he did it. And he did it for basically nothing.



好的，布魯斯史普林斯汀為了一個原因幫這電影配樂。跟我丁點關係也沒有。實際上，老實說，我跟布魯斯見面，他也聽過我，爽，但他沒看過我任何電影。布魯斯史普林斯汀只為了一個原因，這原因就是米基。他和米基是朋友。他是米基死忠影迷，當他聽說這電影，他感到這是米基多年企求的。所以他想幫忙，這就是他幫摔角選手配樂的唯一原因。不求回報。





That's awesome.



酷炫。





Purely out of love for Mickey. And so I can't wait for him to see the movie because Asbury Park is in it and I think he'll be psyched.



為米基無條件付出。我等不及要他看電影，因為阿斯布瑞公園收錄在原聲帶，我猜他一定爽翻。





Oh, I'm surprised he hasn't seen the movie. You listen to that song and it's so dead on…



噢！我很驚訝他還沒看電影。你聽那首歌，真是對味……





He actually put more effort into it. He read the screenplay which is probably harder than watching the movie. He read the screenplay, knew it and basically just pumped it out. It's a beautiful song. As Mickey says, rock stars love him, and so he got Axl [Rose] to close a deal on Sweet Child of Mine. It was really fun rediscovering all that old Hair metal and finding a place for it in the film. And then Clint did a very subtle job in this movie, as compared to what we've done in the past. The film really didn’t call for a big score and what I really admire about what Clint did with the help of Slash is that they did very very very subtle work.



他可能做得更多。他看過劇本，這比看電影更花心思。看過劇本，了解故事，靈感泉湧。好美的一首歌。如米基所說，搖滾明星愛他，所以艾克索 (羅斯) 同意我的甜蜜小孩收錄在原聲帶。重新追尋老迷幻，並在電影裡找到適當位置真是有趣。然後克林特為電影放些巧妙，比過去合作經驗更為巧妙。這電影沒有大陣仗，讓我最景仰克林特與史勒許的，就是他們真的真的真的很巧妙。





Yeah, I didn't even notice it…



是的，有耳無珠。





Yeah, I know, I read your video [blog].



我有在看你的網誌。





Speaking of boxing. What's going on with The Fighter?



說到拳擊。拳擊選手是怎樣？





















Bruce Springsteen - 4th Of July, Asbury Park (Sandy)









Bruce Springsteen - The Wrestler