Interviewing Anna Karina on Thu 21 June 2001 洋娃娃‧魁儡‧史艷文

Being directed

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CM: One last question. Which is - Watching all your films over the last week... 



最後一個問題。這禮拜看了這麼多安娜卡麗娜電影……





AK: I've been a little bit too long, hein?



我故事真的鋪陳太久，對吧？





CM: No, not at all, not at all.



一點也不。一點也不。





AK: That's because I haven't been in England for a long time.



那是因為我好久沒踏上大英帝國領土了。





CM: Watching the films over the last couple of weeks, what's really striking is how different they are, and how different you are in them. How did you prepare for each one? Was there a... How did Godard direct you?



這幾個禮拜看了許多安娜卡麗娜電影，令人驚奇的是電影各有千秋，電影裡的安娜也別有風情。妳是如何準備每一個角色的，或者說高達如何導戲？





AK: Godard doesn't really direct anybody you know. He's like, holding you, inventing everything. It's like a ballad. It's like something you... It just works.



他其實不太管演員怎麼演戲，你也知道。先抓住你的人，靈感於是泉湧。就像首民謠……反正高達就是有那個本事。





CM: Okay, let's just take Alphaville. What did he tell you about Alphaville? What did he say?



好的，我們拿《阿爾伐城》當範例。《阿爾伐城》是關於什麼的故事，他到底講了什麼？





AK: Well he never tells anybody anything. We never had a script. What I can say is that... You just saw the film. What was amazing, maybe not today but at that time, there was no light, you know, and he went to England to make a stage, is that what you say? He went to the labo...



他從不向任何人說明任何事。拍高達電影是沒有劇本的。該怎麼說呢……看電影就知道了，酷炫的是，可能現在還好，當時沒有燈光，於是他到英國取經，他到史艷，那個單字叫什麼來著……





CM: Laboratory. 



實驗室。 



AK: Laboratory. Because there was this new pellicule.



實驗室，因為某種新技術剛發明。





CM: Film. Kind of film.



膠捲之類的。



按：技術層面專有名詞請不吝指教！





AK: No; not film. Yes film. Pellicule. And he went to England to learn about this because it was very ... you just saw the film, as you can see it's very sensitive, .... Because what he liked about this was you didn't need to make a lot of light you know. There was no need for that. So he stayed for three months in London in the labotary, labortry



不，不是膠捲。是膠捲，某種新技術。然後他到英國取經，膠捲相當敏感，不需要打太多光就可以拍電影。他在倫敦的史，史豔宅了三個月。





CM: Lab, lab. In the lab.



史，史艷文。





AK: Okay, in the lab. Let's be American. And he learned about that and he came back and he said to everybody, "I've got this new film to you know, without light. It's fantastic. You can film at night, you can film everywhere." And everyone said, "You must be joking, there's no need. This is full of shit. It's never going to work." And of course so we started the film with Eddie Constantine, with everybody, and Raoul Coutard, who was the chef of photography, he was not allowed to put any light. I mean sometimes you see an ampoule, how'd you say - a lamp? That's all. And there's no light. And he said, "I don't even want to go to the rushes. There will be nothing on the screen. He was sure of it." He was mad.



好的，史艷文。英文真難。從倫敦學成歸國，高達信誓旦旦地說：「老子已經學會膠捲的妙用，這實在是太神奇了，不用打光就可以拍電影，夜間拍，隨處拍。」「你頭殼壞去不成？外星人呼叫地球。」當然我們還是得乖乖聽話，我們包括艾迪康士坦丁，拉烏寇塔，不被允許打任何光的攝影師。有時候只有登跑在黑暗中指引你，那個單字叫什麼來著……燈泡？一言以蔽之，不准打光。然後他說：「我懶得去沖底片了啦！銀幕上什麼東東都也不會有。他堅信不移。」神經病！



按：我們還包括尚皮耶里奧，客串幫康士坦丁和安娜開房間的小服務生。





　← 簡單來說，拉烏寇塔先生是六零年代的神。









He was right, Jean-Luc, because, I don't know, I haven't seen the copy tonight, but normally you can really see people, even with no lights. So Jean-Luc was right. And of course he had a lot of ideas like that. But I guess... We had to make a lot of shots, because it was so sensitive, the film. So he was afraid of small problems on the screen. But it worked.



事實證明高達永遠是對的，我還沒看今晚的電影，但沒有燈光伸手還是可以見五指的。高達永遠是對的，高達是個天才。但我猜他必須一個鏡頭拍很多次，因為膠捲感光度比較強，怕小問題投影到大螢幕會擴張為大問題。總之，高達是個天才。





CM: Okay, thank you. Now we'll throw it open to the audience. Over there.



見好就收。現在我們開放現場同學發問，第五排左邊數來第三位。























A doll and a marionette

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Q: In all the films that you did with Godard was there any moment where you said, "No I will not do this, it's crazy, it's not going to work?"



在所有高達安娜傳世經典裡，有沒有讓妳說出：「老娘打死不從，這太荒謬了，外星人呼叫地球。」的時候？





AK: No, because we never knew before what we were going to do. We had the dialogue five minutes before, so we were so involved with learning the text that we're not even asking what's going on. (laughter)



沒有，因為我們根本不知道接下來要幹麻。五分鐘前才拿到對白，所以我們只想快點搞清楚到底要說些什麼，根本沒時間問問題。(哈)





Q: Was Godard curious about other directors?



高達對其他導演有興趣嗎？





AK: Sometimes he was very jealous, yes. (laughter). But most of the time with Visconti he was very proud. Because Visconti is a fantastic director too.



有，高達是個善妒的傢伙 (哈)。他認為自己和威斯康堤是一時瑜亮。





Q: Did he ask you about what Visconti was like to work with? Was he curious? Was he a big fan of Visconti?



他有問妳和威斯康堤的合作經驗嗎？他有一直問嗎？他是威斯康堤的頭號影迷嗎？



按：《異鄉人》(Lo Straniero)，一九六七年馬斯楚安尼共同領銜主演。





AK: Oh, a very big fan. No he didn't...Jean-Luc doesn't ask that kind of question. He is very respectful when he admired somebody like Visconti. But on the other hand sometimes, he didn't like me too much to, I'm talking about when I was very young of course, he didn't like to work too much with the other directors, but well I did because I haven't done only seven films in my life. I've done about 67, or something like that, plus the TV and the theatre plays. Well, Jean-Luc is somebody who is very respectful, and he loves what's beautiful. It's the most important thing I guess. You cannot be jealous of something... I mean what's beautiful is beautiful, you like it. When you love art, you're like that.



瘋狂粉絲。其實高達不會問那種問題，對於崇拜對象他是很尊敬的。從另個角度他不太喜歡我和其他導演合作，我是說我當時還年輕，他不喜歡和其他導演合作，而我得那樣做，因為演藝生涯只拍了七部電影。約莫一九六七年，再加上電視劇與舞台劇。高達是個必恭必敬的人，他嚮往美，那是生命中最重要的事我猜。你不需要去忌妒什麼……我是說美的存在無從忌妒。當你喜歡藝術，事情就是那麼一回事。





Q: (In French). How did it feel to be treated as a doll and a marionette?



(法語) 對於被視為洋娃娃魁儡做何感想？





AK: D'abord, j'adore les poupées et les marionettes. I love it. (laughter) But I really feel like a woman too and I think that... Bon, vous comprenez l'Anglais ou pas, par ce que vous parlais Français? Probablement mieux que moi. Non non. I loved it. I really felt like a woman, and I mind to be sometimes a marionette, sometimes a doll, sometimes a chipie, sometimes somebody else. That's the art of an actress. Or and actor. It's not a problem. Maybe you should see all the films of Jean-Luc Godard - you've only seen two you told me - before you make a judgement. Because I think he's one of the directors who has done the most variation. And done the possibilities for the actors to give all kind of sentiment.



起初，我愛死洋娃娃魁儡了 (哈)。嗚啦啦……還是操回法蘭西第四共和小俏妞母語吧！你這死英國佬是不會講英文喔？法語又沒老娘英文好…… 不，我並不在意，身為女人，變換角色如魁儡、洋娃娃、婊子、任何人都是演員該嚐試的。或許你該看完高達全集再下評論，因為他是最多才多藝的導演之一，也為演員創造各種可能的情感。



按：法文段落請不吝指教。





Q: What was it like to work on Fassbinder on Chinese Roulette?



和法斯賓答合作《中國輪盤》感覺如何？





AK: Oh it was a very exciting two years. He was a little bit down at that point, but, did you see his film? Did you like it?



相當刺激的兩年。他當時有點低盪，但你看過電影了嗎？喜歡嗎？





Q: Yes.



喜歡。





AK: I think it's a film that's got some kind of ...It's very strange but it's a good film. And well it was kind of the same thing. We had the dialogue about five minutes before we were shooting, and so we went to Cannes. And we stayed away about three weeks and then I kind of got bored, because I've got to learn German because nobody speaks French. I went to the village by foot and I bought a lot of books for kids about five or six years old, because I said, "Well this is terrible, this is tisch..." And then they started to like me because I wanted to learn German. After three weeks I spoke German, so I speak German in the film. It's true.



我覺得那是一部優秀的詭異電影。法斯賓答和高達一樣，開麥拉五分鐘前才交出劇本。身在坎城卻沒有人說法語，休假三個月我得精通德意志基本會話才不會無聊。我徒步至小鎮村，買許多書送給小朋友，因為老娘破口大罵：「這是什麼鬼地方？一切都遭糕到極點……」劇組才開始喜歡我，因為老娘想學德意志基本會話。三個禮拜後老娘德語說地輪轉，所以拍德國片不需要配音員。信不信由你。





掌聲鼓勵鼓勵！





　← 簡單來說，拉烏寇塔先生是六零年代的神。





















Anna Karina & Jean-Luc Godard in Cléo de 5 à 7 (1962)